Progfreaks.com's interview with No-Man's Tim Bowness

14/09/01

Many a progfreak out there has no clue as to what No-Man is. The name Steven Wilson, however, will probably ring a bell. Well, No-Man has been the band of Wilson and Tim Bowness even before Porcupine Tree came out, and the group has had a long string of experimental and forward-looking pop releases that could probably pique the curiosity of many of you. From being the first band to exploit the incoming wave of trip-hop, to working with the likes of King Crimson's Robert Fripp, to having Bowness work on a new project called Henry Fool, with, among others, Pendragon's Fudge Smith, No-Man is a band that is quite active within the music scene and that has created strong ties with the progressive rock scene in the process. Moreover, with its latest release, Returning Jesus, having seen the light of day only recently, there probably isn't a better time to read up about the band and dig into what could be a very pleasant experience. It is thus with great pleasure that we give you our recent interview with Tim Bowness, who, by the way, seems to enjoy The Simpsons as much as the Progfreaks.com staff does!

1 - Going way back to the early years of No-Man and your proto trip-hop cover of Donovan's "Colours…" Didn't it feel awkward to see trip-hop exploding onto the world a short while later and not being a part of the commotion? Were you (or are you) particularly proud of exploiting that sound before it became all the rage?

Tim: At the time, we were definitely quite excited by the possibilities that
sampling opened up for us as a band and for music in general. I'd say that at that point I could see with a degree of certainty where popular music would go in the 1990's.
For me, it seemed pretty obvious that the sonic and rhythmic innovations of hip-hop were going to be absorbed into a more musically and emotionally evolved form (as happened with Bjork, Massive Attack and Portishead), and we were probably amongst the first bands to take the hip-hop methodology and apply it to an arguably more sophisticated sound.
On its release, "Colours" did get immediate praise from the UK press (Singles Of The Week in Sounds, Melody Maker and Record Mirror) and this led to our originally getting signed, but by the time Trip Hop had come to dominate in the mid-1990's, due to difficulties with our then record company (One Little Indian), we were no longer in a position to exploit the situation.

2 - A thing that many probably don't notice about No-Man when listening to your music is the fact that you were influenced at one time by hip-hop artists. Actually, I think most people would fail to understand just how it was an influence on the development of No-Man. Would you like to clear that up a bit?

Tim: When myself and Steven (Wilson) first started writing together in the mid-1980's, the music we were making was in the vein of the type of ambient and pop music being purveyed by the likes of Cocteau Twins, Talk Talk, Eno, Bowie and Sylvian, combined with our love of Jazz (Miles Davis, Eberhard Weber, Alice Coltrane) and singer-songwriters (Nick Drake, Donovan, Joni Mitchell, Tim Buckley). Add to this a past of having loved progressive music and you have the ingredients for the very early No-Man which can be heard on an album called Speak.
By the late 1980's, dance music and hip-hop music was proving itself to be
amongst the most exciting and genuinely progressive musics of our time. Excited by what this music suggested to us, we incorporated aspects of it into the No-Man sound and as a consequence of this fusion of unusual influences, I think we created something pretty original.

3 - I recall reading on an interview that at one time, before Flowermouth, you decided to play along with some of the "games" of the music industry. Just how much did you exactly play along? Was Ben Coleman influential in that decision and was that one of the reasons why you parted ways with him?

Tim: Against our will, we were being pressured by both our manager and our record label to produce what they considered to be "hit single" material. On one occasion (in 1993) they released a version of a song ("Painting Paradise") that we thought was terrible.
After that, we vowed only to allow material that we were totally happy with to get out and gave our manager (also Talk Talk's manager) and record company no options as to what they could release.
This led to a distinct falling off of interest from the label (and the manager).

4 - Anyway, after you got sick of the idiocy that you had to put up with at One Little Indian, you fired back with Flowermouth. Just what exactly was the reaction when the people at the record label heard it and how happy did it make you when you saw it?

Tim: Ironically, Flowermouth was the No-Man album that they liked the least and, despite poor promotion, the one that went on to sell more than any other record we'd done. Basically, they saw no commercial potential in the album and let it slip out like an embarrassment.
As far as we were concerned, we loved the album and were happy to issue something that we felt strongly about. Obviously, One Little Indian's disinterest was upsetting to a degree, but at least we'd made a statement that we were proud of.

5 - Talking about the Flowermouth era, you recorded the Flame album with Richard Barbieri at the time. What exactly led you to engage in that project? Another thing is that to my knowledge, that album isn't available anymore…is it ever going to see the light of day again?

Tim: Jansen, Barbieri and Karn had toured as part of the No-Man backing band in 1992.
During that time, I traveled with Richard and we got on well personally and also found that we shared a lot of the same tastes. The recording was enjoyable and despite its lack of availability, the album became something of a fans' favourite.
To be honest, I've no idea whether it will be released again.

6 - Then came No-Man's Wild Opera, which was all over the place. It seems that No-Man has two modes: the really wild and eccentric one where everything goes, and the more laid-back, atmospheric one where your songs seem to be more reflective. Would you say that is an accurate description of the No-Man musical philosophy?

Tim: Absolutely.
From the very beginning, we both had extremely eclectic tastes and interests, so it naturally emerged in the music.
No-Man music tends to either reflect our own more introspective interests (Returning Jesus, Speak, Flowermouth), or be about distinctively reflecting the wider concerns of the contemporary pop scene (Lovesighs, Wild Opera).

7 - Another thing that comes across as particularly interesting regarding No-Man is your records' cover art. It always seems very bleak and realistic, with perhaps the exception of Loveblows and Lovecries. The cover art for Wild Opera seems pretty edgy somehow despite the family image, and you certainly don't shy away from shocking the public with things like the transvestites kissing cover art of "Only Baby" or the Housewives Hooked on Heroin title. Is there a malicious intent of shocking people or of coming across as a band with very abrasive capabilities?

Tim: As with David Lynch in his film "Blue Velvet," I've always been drawn to seemingly innocent images that actually hide potentially evil or dangerous intent. I think in life nothing is ever certain or wholly safe, however much we pretend.
No-Man's music is mostly calming, but I think it has an awareness of the potential threat beneath the surface of things.

8 - Moving into more general territory regarding No-Man…you once commented that England has a penchant for trying to be hip all the time. Isn't there a bit of irony in there when people want to be hip and absorb the latest but shy away from innovation sometimes because it's just not "in?"

Tim: Innovation, like everything else, has its time in the sun of success. Perhaps once a decade, through boredom, the pendulum swings towards more experimental music and ideas and allows them access to a wider public. The late 60's/early 70's, late 70's/early 80's and the mid-1990's were all very exciting times for innovative pop music and I'm sure that it will come around again. Radiohead's brave approach on Amnesiac and Kid A might prove to be the perfect antidote to the last few years of more basic indie pop and girl/boy bands.
The current teenage obsession with all things heavy metal suggests that even they've been mighty bored with what the record companies had been throwing at them.
The "fashion grip" still exists to an extent in Britain, but with the demise of many of the music papers over here, it's become less trend-orientated and slightly more conventional and major record label-orientated.
As I've said a lot recently, money has always talked in music, but it's never talked quite as loudly as it does today.

9 - Another aspect of No-Man in general seems to be your attitude. There seems to be a lot of British dark humor at times, and your cover art, image, and lyrics have more than once neglected all macho prejudices and even moved into more androgynous territory, which some people out there are probably not comfortable with at all. Is this all just a natural part of the No-Man and Tim Bowness modus operandi? Do you feel as if modernity is somehow leading to the crumbling down of sexual prejudices and the entire macho structure that most of the world runs on currently?

Tim: Although we're both heterosexual, both myself and Steven are far from any image of the macho male. In the past, we've not been afraid to play with sexual imagery or notions of our own sexuality, primarily because we're quite comfortable with who we are and what we like.
I think sexual prejudices have crumbled throughout the last century and there's no doubt that they will continue to do so until an equality has been reached.
Personally, I've always found prejudice (whether sexual or racial) repellent and incomprehensibly stupid.

10 - Yet another of the recurrent characteristics of No-Man is your ability to work at different levels with the band. On one hand, you can have very laconic lyrics and on the other, richly symbolic ones. Moreover, you seem to have a lyrical obsession with bitterness, changes in life, and disillusion in general. Where do your perspectives come from and which of your songs would you say sum up your lyrical abilities the best?

Tim: I'd say the impetus for most of my obsession with single moments that shape a life comes from my own experiences as an adolescent.
Within a short period of time, my Mother was killed in a car crash, my Grandfather died, and my Grandmother had several nervous breakdowns. Add to that tremendous family tension and near-violence and my relatively ordinary teenage years had been turned into something rather more strange.
From the age of 15, I lived without anything resembling a secure family life and I suspect that in some way it still underpins the emotional nature of what I write.
Another strand of what I write comes from my interest in people being too afraid to take chances with their lives ("Animal Ghost"). Some of that comes from my own fears and some from people I know who've found themselves trapped in less than ideal circumstances.
I like the lyric to "Returning Jesus" because to me, it conveys a great deal of emotion in a very simple way.

11 - Something that strikes some people out there as peculiar is the fact that Steven Wilson doesn't handle any vocals on your records. Is there any possibility that the two of you may sing together on a song at one point? How would you describe your own vocal style in comparison to Steven's?

Tim: Steven has sung backing vocals on quite a few tracks ("Pretty Genius," "Lighthouse," etc.) and I'm sure will continue to do so. I guess because I write the vocal melodies, I tend to take most of the vocal duties. If I didn't, it might not be No-Man!
Steven's style is lighter than mine and I'd say that if my style is descended from crooners such as Bowie, Sylvian and Chet Baker, his style derives more from Dave Gilmour and Syd Barrett.

12 - Now, focusing a bit more on you…would you think it would be fair to describe Samuel Smiles as a slowly evolving band, No-Man as a quickly evolving band, and Darkroom as a plain weird band?

Tim: My work with Samuel Smiles, Richard Barbieri and on the forthcoming California, Norfolk album is closer to the spirit of the more introspective No-Man output such as "Animal Ghost" and "Watching Over Me." It concentrates on one aspect of what I do and as such, I think is more musically limited than No-Man (which has a genuinely large scope of interest).
Darkroom is a fairly experimental, almost totally improvised electronica project and because of that I imagine is a lot less audience friendly than everything else I do.
In the capacity of guitarist/singer, I've also recently formed a band called Henry Fool (with Pendragon's Fudge Smith). Henry Fool's music is a combination of 60's/70's progressive influences (Gabriel-era Genesis/Pink Floyd/Soft Machine), contemporary textural experiments (Rain Tree Crow) and group improvisations (King Crimson/ Radiohead/Tortoise). I think this will also surprise people, but probably won't be perceived as being quite as intimidating as Darkroom.
I feel that No-Man represents myself and Steven's strongest work and I believe that our various collaborations always ensure that the band has a constant supply of new ideas coming in. After all this time of working together, that's definitely a good thing and
I think that our work with other musicians (me with Richard Barbieri, Jarboe, David Torn/Steven with Porcupine Tree, Bass Communion, Anja Garbarek, JBK etc.) ultimately benefits the music of No-Man.

13 - You've worked with a lot of interesting musicians in the past, including, for instance, Robert Fripp and Ian Carr. How have those collaborations contributed to your personal development as an artist in general? Did Robert Fripp have any other surprising reactions to the pictures of musicians that you showed him other than "bad timekeeper" regarding Rick Wakeman and a gesture of vomiting regarding Jimmy Page?

Tim: He spoke reverentially of Frank Zappa and John McLaughlin, and laughed at an old photograph of him that we flashed in his face.
We've always worked with people who we've considered to be creatively interesting. Industry status has been irrelevant to us.
It was an absolute pleasure to work with the deservedly legendary likes of Robert Fripp, Mick Karn, Ian Carr and David Torn, but I'd also have to add that's been equally inspiring to work with other much lesser known musicians such as Michael Bearpark, Peter Chilvers and Rick Edwards. Hopefully all our collaborative work has been of value to both parties.

14 - Now let's move on to what we call Progfreaks.com's series of oddball questions just for a second. It's basically just laying down some questions that you will probably never hear in other interviews and thus getting some answers that could one day make a winner out of a No-Man fan at a trivia contest…First one: do you watch The Simpsons? How about Monty Python?

Tim: The Simpsons I think is pure genius - an amazingly funny and perceptive parody of American conventions. Homer is a God and my doughnut intake has tripled since the programme started in the UK! [Ed.note: So has mine since it started in Mexico…]
I'm less keen on Monty Python (John Cleese's Fawlty Towers was much better in my opinion), but I watched it as a child and still take an interest in what some of the old members are up to (especially Terry Gilliam, whose films I greatly admire).

15 - You're on a deserted island with two bands, supplies are scarce, and one of the bands must be thrown into the sea so that the rest can survive. Who goes? Depeche Mode or Massive Attack?

Tim: I'm afraid to say that without question it's the Mode that would have to be thrown into the sea and at the mercy of the sharks.
Although I do like the odd DM tune, for me, they don't compare to the likes of Massive Attack's 'Teardrop," "Angel," and "Unfinished Sympathy" (amongst others).

16 - What brings you to tears the most? Slicing onions or watching MTV?

Tim: A close call, but probably MTV's "Britney" specials bring the tears (of boredom) out more readily.

17 - Why not Yes-Man?

Tim: We're a couple of miserable buggers.
Having said that, if we were Yes-Man, Jon Anderson would probably sue us.

18 - Now, approaching the current situation of No-Man and returning to sanity…your latest album, Returning Jesus, is more in the laid-back and atmospheric side of the band. Yet the album's lyrics are somewhat sad and at points seem utterly bitter and realistic. Another characteristic is that there are contrasting elements of human sweetness and mechanical coldness, which to me are apparent when comparing "Carolina Skeletons" and "Returning Jesus," for instance. How did the album come to take such a shape?

Tim: Mostly it was due to the fact that we wanted to release an album that was the best we possibly could. From the very beginning we were determined to do something that was a stylistic departure for the band and an uncompromising representation of our intentions.
The main thing we had in mind with Returning Jesus was to make it something that we were totally proud of and that possessed a sincere emotional consistency throughout.
I think that although the album starts off with a sense of desolation and loss, it builds to a conclusion that offers some kind of salvation (whether imagined or real) in human companionship ("Lighthouse," "All That You Are").

19 - Why the title Returning Jesus? I remember reading that it had something to do with coffee, so I assume it's really not religious in essence, but are there any religious connotations to it that later came out? How do you think it relates to the music and the general approach of the album?

Tim: Coffee? An interesting interpretation. One thing I can say is that it's not a homage to Nescafé or Mellow Birds!

The song is more a meditation on what would happen if a modern-day Jesus did appear and the fact that we're all pretty much immune to believing in the possibility of miracles (myself included). My feeling is that he/she would wander a fairly lonely path and would end up totally lost and ignored. I also saw it as something of a metaphor for ignored artists such as Nick Drake and Jean Rhys.

20 - Now that you have a new album out here, what are the possibilities of No-Man actually touring once again? After all, it's been a really long while for the band's fans since they last got the chance to see you play live. Any chance of coordinating something with Porcupine Tree perhaps?

Tim: Because of Steven's attitude to these things, a link-up between Porcupine Tree and No-Man is unlikely.
We've had a very good reaction to Returning Jesus and we've been asked to play in several countries, so hopefully, within the next year, there will finally be another No-Man live tour (our first since 1993).

21 - Last question. No-Man is definitely an evolving band in the fields of pop, just like Porcupine Tree is in the fields of progressive rock. You've already experimented considerably with electronica currents out there, of which ample proof is the Flowermix album. Now that you've done that, what's next? What's the coming wave of the future and how are you going to exploit it?

Tim: We have a few ideas regarding potential future directions for our next album, varying from it being a logical continuation of certain aspects of Returning Jesus to it being an entirely electronic album, or even one long disco symphony piece.
In reality, we'll only know when we start writing for the album what's going to happen. Everything depends on how we're feeling and what we're listening to and thinking about at the time of the new recordings.
One of the exciting qualities of No-Man is that it's a constantly evolving band that doesn't know where it's headed until it's reached its destination.

For more information, visit The Official No-Man Website (http://www.no-man.co.uk)

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