Progfreaks.com's interview with Second Sufis

9/12/01

Progressive rock, not unlike other genres of modern music, has managed to extend to a confounding variety of approaches, techniques, and sounds that has been the result of bands willing to surpass imaginary barriers and really push the envelope further. With its unique recording tecnhique and integration of technology into the recording process per se, Second Sufis is one of such acts, embracing not only what can be seen as a highly unorthodox musical style, but also a determined lifestyle directed at the purpose of creating music. And while mass media appeal may be far from these musicians' ambitions, their use of the digital revolution and the opportunities it offers will surely be crucial in the further development and expansion of Second Sufis, as both Jim Mott and Mike Gorman kindly explain to Progfreaks.com.

1 - The music of Second Sufis is strongly reliant upon technology, as all sorts of new recording devices are used by the band in order to record live multiple layers, instruments, and samples with only two members. As you mention in Second Sufis' Technical Manual, technology is normally viewed as a tool for furthering mass consumption; not art. Is this a case of fighting the enemy with its own weapons (i.e. technology)? What would be of Second Sufis if all this technology weren't available?

Jim: Technology is merely a tool. The issue is how technology is used. One can use technology to replace one's efforts, or one can use technology to experiment and extend one's musical experience.

Mike: Everyone exploits tools to their own ends. People sometimes feel that technology is oppressive and out of control, but new technologies can be a "double-edged sword." Because of the revolution in "personal computing," technology can serve the individual too, not just the forces of mass consumption. While this does not put the individual on a "level playing field" with corporations, it tends to equalize many of aspects of the competition between corporate music and unsigned or independent musicians. Consider the fact that you can find Second Sufis MP3s on the Internet with a search engine as easily as you can find MP3s of Madonna. Also, music and technology aren't necessarily separate things. When we separate math/science from music/art, something is lost from each.
If electronic and digital technology were not available we'd play our acoustic guitars (and other acoustic instruments). We would have to rely on some other means to make our recordings. Renting studio time means that our improvisational method - which is a hit or miss approach - would probably be too expensive. We might have to go back to performing a set repertoire of written pieces, although I'm sure they would still include some improvised sections. We might need to add more band members to fill out the sound. Of course, we could not afford to pay them.

If there were no recording technology, we could only hear live performances of music. This would be interesting in a way, because there would be more need for musicians and just hearing music would be more of a special occasion.

2 - You've mentioned that music has become a commodity in recent times; an extra accessory expected to accompany multimedia experiences such as movies and video games, or a background element to make work, sport, etc., more pleasant. And if this is a result of reduced attention spans with each new generation, won't the lack of "disciplined" attention to things like music contribute even more to accelerate such reduction of attention spans? Also, isn't it possible that the multitasking tendencies of new generations will somehow compensate for this?

Jim: The kind of attention I am talking about is about being in moment, and then being able to extend that for a whole song, or maybe even a whole performance.
What multitasking requires is really an integration of your effort. Without some kind of integration, trying to multitask just results in useless flailing.

Mike: I'm not sure if the problem is a reduced attention span or a habitual consumer demand for instant gratification that does not allow the music, or other art forms, the necessary amount of time to unfold. Another result of the reduced attention span, or impatience, is the way our television news is reported in entertaining "sound bites." Very little information gets through the allocated time slice. This superficiality is so pervasive in mass media that consumers get used to it as the "normal" thing. It takes entertainment that is ever more compressed, ever more instantaneously gratifying, to penetrate the mass market. Projecting this idea into the future, I'm reminded of an old TV science fiction show, Max Headroom [Ed.note: Holy cow! I hadn't heard of that show in ages!], which had an episode where a corporation was airing their advertisements in a ten second TV add called a "blipvert." The trouble was, people watching the blipvert tended to explode in front of their TV sets.
On the other hand, some people find that they have less time to accomplish the things they need to do. They compensate by doing two, or three, or more things at once. If some of the tasks are familiar (habitual) this can be maintained until something out of the ordinary happens and the habitual response doesn't work anymore. At that point things tend to fly apart.
Ambient music is good for multitasking. You can listen with "half an ear" while doing other stuff. Some people find it hard to work with music playing, but for me it's hard to work without it. Our music varies between the ambient and music that demands all your attention. A musician has to multitask when playing music - there is the music, the thoughts, the emotions, the hands, and the other musicians all needing your attention at the same time. Playing music is a good place to start practicing multitasking because there is a unifying thread - the music itself - that ties everything together (attention is "one"). Without this center, multitasking can tear you apart. Other good multitasking disciplines might be dance or practicing martial arts. I wouldn't recommend practicing your multitasking while driving a car, however.

3 - "To be in the world but not of it." Is this an approach that the members of Second Sufis use not only in their music, but also in their lives? Isn't it harder to live with a Sufi approach and work with it when life becomes continually more dependent on things like profit and governments cut funds meant for the arts in schools because they're not as "useful" as subjects such as mathematics?

Jim: It is harder if you do not want to compromise the essence of what you are doing.

Mike: To some degree this is probably true of us. Most of our activities, including earning a living, are aimed at making it possible to do our music.
One difference between a Sufi and a dervish is that a dervish has renounced earning money, while a Sufi has renounced even that. The Sufi has an aim and can make conscientious judgments about how to accomplish that aim, even if it means leading what looks (from the outside) like an ordinary life.

A Sufi can live and work in a world where large corporations, governments, and religious powers dominate by rewriting all the rules to their own advantage. Of course it is harder to do something entirely on your own resources (there is no government funding for our art). But I think that what you have to give up in order to ingratiate yourself with "the world" is even harder.

While a Sufi could conceivably work undercover as an artist signed to a major label, you could debate on whether he would have more success in promoting free music than we do with our methods. We fund our project by working outside the music industry in the technology sector. This is like having two jobs. I find it very difficult to compromise when it comes to music, but in my day job I find I am more able to "play the game" and make compromises to a certain degree. Without profit there is no paycheck. I have standards for the kind of paid work I take, but these are ethical standards instead of aesthetic ones.
Being "of the world," to me, means ignoring what your eyes, ears, and heart tell you, and not questioning what your are told - even if this contradicts something else you were told before. For example, in school we are taught that art is not a science and that mathematics is not an art. Did Leonardo Da Vinci consider himself an engineer or an artist? Was Pythagoras a geometer or a musician? Would they have been better off if they had stuck to only art or math alone? Probably not.

People try to fit all of their experiences into basic categories that they believe will never need to change, like "Someone can either be an artist or they can be an engineer, not both." This false notion has been taught since the industrial revolution, and fits into the scheme of the corporate world that has grown out of that revolution. Coming out of the world means acknowledging that there is something wrong with the scheme of things, and that certain questions need to be answered. If someone can see past those static categories, or define new categories that fit their experiences better, they gain an advantage over someone whose thinking is stuck in the fixed categories. The "powers" of the world use these uncontested categories to manipulate our thoughts and actions - categories like left/right, liberal/conservative, peacekeeper/terrorist, artist/mathematician, traditional/modern, good/evil. By seeing past the polar categories we become more empowered, can build relationships, and can begin making some repairs.

4 - Second Sufis records live, without overdubs, improvising, and on the spot. How tricky is it to record samples while playing and then looping them into the recording at the right time? Before commencing to record, do both of you speak about what you'd like the new piece to be about or to express, or does the process come naturally from within?

Jim: Because we are both so used to working in a group setting, it has become natural for us to do this kind of performing. I think of it as performing because the goal is to experience the music in moment as a group and audience. I like recording the way I play, as a band.
Occasionally, we speak about what we are going to do. This happens more if we are in a new environment, or working with someone else. We talk a good deal about music, guitars, effects, etc. Also, we have worked long enough together that there is an unspoken communication in our playing.

Mike: The only thing we always set up in advance is the song tempo, time signature, and loop time. The music comes very much from within.

We use an earphone metronome (from a Cakewalk sequencer) to help keep synchronized, and have floor pedals to "punch in" to the digital tape loops. It took a long time to get our gear working together - not all digital music devices have accurate clocks. Sometimes a device clock goes bad and it takes months of recording sessions before you realize exactly what is wrong.

We practice with metronomes for our individual practice too. We work on timing a lot - that's one reason why we started incorporating so many acoustic drums during the last couple of years.

5 - Second Sufis advocates the use of MP3s in order to distribute music through the Internet and to allow people to look for music of their taste before buying records. There are many people, however, who admit to downloading MP3s through file sharing programs as a way to avoid buying those records. Furthermore, many people do not notice the quality difference between MP3s and CDs, so there is basically no reason for them to buy a CD when they are not interested in supporting the artist. Is this a necessary evil in the development of music distribution through the Internet? Is the MP3 revolution truly helping independent musicians out, or flooding what once could have been an effective tool for promotion?

Jim: My belief is that if someone is really a fan, they will want the CD. It is only an evil for the establishment.

Mike: You can download Second Sufis MP3s for free. These are very high resolution MP3s, but the CDs still sound much better, and are the full-length songs.

Unless you are the next pop music star, a music group has to build its own name recognition. Until they do this they can never get enough CD sales to be "successful," that is, the band won't be selling the 100,000 CDs or more necessary to pay their expenses for a year. Dollar for dollar, Internet promotion and free MP3 distribution is the most effective way to bridge this gap. When a group becomes more successful, they sometimes change their mind, though. Consider Metallica, who gained name recognition and fame in the bootleg audio cassette market [Ed.note: The underground thrash metal tape trading network, actually!], but later complained about MP3 bootlegging.

6 - According to the Technical Manual, the established music industry has become purely a money making machine with the sole interest of reaping profits regardless of quality. Is it possible for an artist to exist within this record industry framework and maintain one's integrity to the fullest? Is using that existing infrastructure an act of hypocrisy in itself, or is it possible to fight it from within?

Jim: It does happen, but it is very rare and usually involves a little luck.

Mike: There are some interesting bands, like Rage Against the Machine, who play a "cat and mouse game" with their own record companies (the cat). They use the exposure they get through their record company to voice an anti-corporate anarchist message. Their music, however, has a more popular hardcore/hip hop listener base than ours.

Most pop starts don't even write their own music. Many don't even sing it, as we've seen (Milli Vanilli, Britney Spears, etc.).

Signed artists have contracts that force them to give up most of their rights as an artist. A great deal of pressure is applied. If the record company asks you to sign, and you want something in the contract changed, they withdraw the offer. They know that there are plenty of groups who will sign with no questions asked.

On the Three of a Perfect Pair album, King Crimson members were not even allowed to choose which recording takes ended up on that album; the record company did! There was a much better take of the song "Sleepless" that didn't make it onto that CD. So there have been some who tried to fight from within. Even for relatively well-known artists like these, the control placed on them by major labels is incredibly restrictive. Some of them have established their own independent labels. Discipline Global Mobile Records? Not much different than Second Sufis' independent B9 label, except with much better industry connections. They often record out of home studios like we do. There are other small record labels like Cuneiform that I am hopeful for.

If a major label group suddenly started doing eclectic music and had phenomenal sales, the situation could be very different. This would be like the Beatles phenomena all over again, and I'm sure many cutting edge musicians could ride that wave. But, like politics, nobody with any integrity can get to that level these days.

7 - An interesting quote from the Technical Manual was "music is not a rhythmic Morse code." This becomes particularly poignant at a moment when programmers are trying to find ways to create programs that create music by themselves without the assistance of human beings. Is it possible to create transcendental music this way? Is the need for emotion in the arts slowly disappearing as life trends change with the years?

Jim: Random chance would tell you that this is possible. But the quality of music is not something that is attained through random chance. Anyone who has experienced the quality of music recognizes this.

Mike: Automated music might be good for new and unexpected combinations of pitches and rhythms. You might find yourself humming something you heard the machine play earlier - a phrase that "stuck" in your ear. An "artist" might listen to countless hours of machine-generated music and save off a collection of his favorite phrases as a compilation album, or a programmer might try to create a set of "rules" to filter the random music generator so it only emits music-like sounds. What is random? There are all kinds of irrational numerical patterns that never repeat but which still describe a particular form (like a circle or exponential curve) and are not random. Many pleasing sounds, like wind or running water, have a chaotic quality. Even noise comes in different colors - white, pink, etc.

When improvising, an unexpected sound (like a randomly triggered effect) can sometimes cause a musical reaction in the human players. Like a mutating gene, chaos can occasionally be creative.

There is emotion in playing music, and also emotion in the response of the listener. I personally wouldn't want to listen to music unless there was some emotional response. Sometimes the emotions can be cold instead of hot though. The piece at the end of Seven Rays, "Space Ghost," expresses very cold emotion - isolation, distance, dissolution. Real emotions, even if they are negative, are important for artists to share and are preferable to fake emotions that are often substituted. Art without emotion leaves out the human quality. My opinion is that much of what passes for art these days is a pretense. Most people depend on someone else to tell them what is art and what is not.

8 - Now, moving on to more Second Sufis specific territory…your first album, Air Guitar, was an all-acoustic effort, while the rest of your efforts are all more electronic in nature. Why this stylistic change? Was it necessary to get all the ideas you had been accumulating for six years out at that point? Has there ever been an intention of returning to a purely acoustic approach?

Jim: Air Guitar was a release of a collection of acoustic pieces that we had collected over the years. We both practice and play acoustic guitar regularly. As our approach and music has changed, we have been recording and playing much more electric music. In the last two years we have begun incorporating the acoustic guitars (and other acoustic instruments) into what we are currently doing. The electric guitar and Stick remain the cornerstone of our work though.

Mike: We'd recorded several acoustic songs in the late eighties and early nineties, and thought that the acoustic CD would be a good calling card for listeners familiar with Guitar Craft. Actually, Air Guitar was released after our second CD, Soft Clock, but recorded earlier.
I think you will hear more acoustic guitar on the next CD, as yet unnamed and to be released early next year. We both practice acoustic guitar every day. We're incorporating lots of other acoustic instruments in the more recent recordings as well. As far as all-acoustic guitar recordings, I think it is a bit restrictive for an entire CD, but you might hear some two-part guitar pieces in the future.

9 - The CD Slave Labor on Mars was accompanied by a cassette called West of Mars, which contained other tracks from the recording session results. What has happened to West of Mars? Is it still possible for Second Sufis fans to obtain this recording somehow and immerse themselves more in the music of the band? Moreover, how does Second Sufis choose which tracks go on a record and which don't?

Jim: We both have to agree that something is worthy for it to appear on a CD. The most important things are musicality, the quality of playing, and the composition. It is also essential that all tracks on a CD work together.

Mike: We put out the West of Mars cassette when it looked like the Slave Labor on Mars CD would never be released (we were both laid off from work at the same time and scraped together our last pennies to make the cassette). We sold West of Mars at some local record stores in Connecticut; a few made it to New York too. We still have a box of the West of Mars cassettes around somewhere. Anyone can use our email ordering form at our website to order cassettes. Or write us a letter and we'll mail you the ordering form.

Second Sufis
104 W. Hyerdale Drive
Goshen, CT
06756 USA

Jim and I decide, by consensus, what tracks end up on the released CDs. Sometimes we have to negotiate and compromise with each other (as impossible as we both are). If we can't agree, the track goes nowhere.

10 - Every single one of your albums seems to have a basic theme, technical idea, or general approach that makes them differ from each other sharply. The concept of The Soft Clock sounds particularly technical, while the approach of Metroplex sounds visceral, and the one of Seven Rays is apparently very spiritual. Does one element ever become more predominant than another when a Second Sufis album is being recorded? Isn't there a chance that setting objectives like the ones on The Soft Clock will somehow limit the expressive possibilities of the band?

Jim: Second Sufis is a growing, changing entity. It is my experience that the themes present themselves. They are discovered simply by the evolving nature of the band.

Mike: We try to let the theme of a CD develop naturally over the course of time. Lately, our method has been to listen to all the recordings made during a particular year and try to identify candidates for the next CD release. We will do a rough mix of various portions of those recordings. When we've collected enough rough mixes for three or four albums, we burn recordable CDs and put them in the CD changer of our stereo player. We'll put the CD player on "random shuffle" and listen for patterns to emerge. It eventually becomes clear what pieces belong together and a theme becomes apparent. In a way, all the CDs have the same theme - something like "this is how things look from here."

Soft Clock was a little different - all those pieces were recorded over the course of about a week or ten days in mid winter. It is actually very organic sounding; some of our most "lyrical" recordings. Jim's Stick really sings. The "Soft Clock" title is borrowed from Salvador Dali's "soft watch" paintings ("Persistence of Memory" and others), with their melting watches and surreal landscapes. This also relates, I think, to the Zoroastrian idea of two kinds of time: repetitive time (Monday through Friday) and progressive time (day after day after day), which is mirrored in the music on the CD, which loops but continually changes. For me, the title of one of the songs, "Tides of Time," best describes the feeling of time stretching across a lifetime.

11 - Something that comes across as rather curious is the fact that, after Seven Rays, what seemed to be a continual rate of releasing albums suddenly stopped, and the new Second Sufis record is taking a lot more time for its release. Why this change of pace? And what kind of concepts will Second Sufis experiment with on its next album?

Jim: Generally we have released CD's at a rate of about one CD every two years. We are planning to release two CD's next year, one in the spring and one in the fall. As usual, you should expect to hear something new.

Mike: When Seven Rays was nearly released, Second Sufis had a change of residence. Since then we've done quite a bit of recording in the new place. In 2000 we were planning lots of public performances. After just a few shows, however, we found ourselves about to be without a home/studio again because the landlord had decided to sell. This prevented us from any more performances or CD releases, as we scrambled to find a new place to live. As it happened, the downturn in the economy changed our landlord's plans and the house was not put on sale after all.

Now, after some delays, we are mixing down tracks recorded in early 2000, and some earlier recordings, for the new CD. There are lots of acoustic instruments in the mix now - tabla, udu, slit drum, Tibetan singling bowls and ceremonial horns, Chinese bowl gongs, 'oud, dumbek, didgeridoo, and a massive bronze-age Irish blow horn, among others. So the overall sound is more in the direction of what is called world music.

I guess the most experimental aspect lately is that we now record the acoustic instruments directly into the digital tape loops along with guitar and Chapman stick. There's lots you can do to the sounds of these instruments once they are digitized, but mostly we've been digging the unaltered acoustic sounds. Sometimes the layering approaches a sound reminiscent of a Mike Oldfield overdubbing project. Of course we don't have any actual recording tape to wear thin. The loops are digital delays with controlled feedback. Looping live with microphones is "living dangerously," and can cause some awful feedback squeals if we're not careful. It might be hard to do microphone looping in a large performance space.

So much of our effort has been to become more rhythmically proficient. We are playing in several different polyrhythmic meters and using several different basic loop times.
As we get better at improvising, we've sometimes been able to spontaneously move as a group from one diatonic mode to another to another, effectively improvising together over the same chord changes (also improvised). We have some new recordings where our keyboard sideman Jerome Pier sings really well. He spent several years in Africa with the Peace Corps and absorbed a great deal of the culture, including the music. We recorded more music again last summer with Jerome, and Mark Greeno too, but have been so busy we haven't listened to it yet.

12 - Anything else you'd like to fill us up on?

Mike: I want to tell everyone to check our webpage regularly for MP3s that I will soon be posting, and which preview our new CD. Thanks for the thoughtful questions and for helping us reach out to a broader audience.

For more information, visit the official Second Sufis website (http://www.secondsufis.com)

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